Record Keeping
I keep copies of many of my comments elsewhere, so that I can keep track of how my own thinking evolves, and also just so that I can remember what I’ve said in various circumstances.
A recent entry on Transadvocate has given me a good opportunity to expand on a few things in a different mode than purely reactive, and I’m going to take the occasion to reproduce my comments here:
Those who identify as “WBT” no longer see themselves as being a transsexual, stating that “surgery made me female.” They can identify however they like, but if all the facts are taken into account, SRS/GRS/SAS cannot make any male-born individual into a female.
Yeah, but so what, really? We (the non-fundamentalists) sometimes make too much of a point in waving that in their faces, I think. If we are to be consistent and insist that biology and anatomy are not that important, then I think this is a point where we could give ground without any offense to our own principles. The fact is that most trans people really do transition in a fairly normative context, and there is no inherent wrong in that. I might have a stricter view of biological reality, but that view – fortunately – does not pertain in the area, for instance, of legal recognition of sex… nor, by our own principles, should it.
I recognize the frustration. The fundamentalists make much of cherry-picked and lovingly displayed physical facts, and it’s tempting to just pound away at the obvious contradictions.
But to what end? It advances little, I think.
I am of the political opinion that separatism of any kind is a failure. But who am I to say “thou shalt not secede?” I just wish that in doing so, they didn’t seem quite so adamant about pulling down straw giants behind them.
…
I think I failed to emphasize something… namely, that it does no harm for someone to believe that their surgery makes them “really female.” It is, after all, what sits at the deepest heart of most transwomen, even if a more worldly attitude tends to seep in over time. The only harm done is when their inward belief becomes an outward mandate.Which, I confess, tends to be what happens… as it does for anyone who invests themselves so heavily in any kind of identity.
…
I know that crossdressers and I have little in common. I’ve had the oft-narrated experience of going to a single meeting of a local “gender group”, seeing that it was largely devoted to the interests of straight men who wear frocks, and deciding it had little to do with me. I’ve met enough actual crossdressers in real life to have that sense of dissonance. But I don’t bristle at the “transgender umbrella” because I don’t understand it as an identity collective. The possibility that crossdressers and I may share some experiences or face some similar issues doesn’t threaten me, because I am comfortable with the differences, and their action in the real world.There are overlaps. People do evolve (now there’s a critical difference between me and a fundamentalist). But affinity and alliance are not identity, and those of us who are comfortable with the alliance know that.
…
I should like to add that very few natal women of my acquaintance – I work in an industry where professional women are more than usually well represented – are as adamant about their “essential, immutable gender” as most fundamentalists appear to be. I’ve had conversation with them about it, and they tend to express a far less rigid view of themselves, me, and the world in general.
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If it is that all those that SAY they are transsexual ..ARE transsexual…
I didn’t say that. It’s the overreaching generalizations that make this conversation so difficult.
What I do say, however, is that it is no more valid to say that “no transsexuals are also transgender” than it is to say that “all transsexuals are also transgender.”
And that has to do with my perspective on what “transgender” usefully refers to. My own observation is that even many “classic” transsexuals shift their gender performance over time, in order to function in the world. I agree that gender is in some respects innate – I’ve had too many conversations with too many mothers to think otherwise, and if I didn’t believe it in myself – if I didn’t have what seems to be a kind of lodestone in my nose – I would probably have felt no need to transition. But it is also a social process – again, as most natal women will tell you.
Or at least, as they have told me. I am not delusional. I know very well that I am in some ways “tolerated” but I am tolerated fairly well because I don’t walk in, say “Hi girls!” and start yakking like I own the place (and I am not suggesting that you do). I let people know me, and I listen to them a lot, and that gives me an opportunity to learn who they are, and that’s partly how I discover who I am. Because that’s how socialization works.
And as part of that process I’ve had a lot of time to talk to women, not about how they see me but how they see themselves, and that’s where I learned that many natal women don’t have the death-grip on their “sense of gender” that most fundamentalists seem to claim for themselves. When I feel comfortable discussing transition with these people they “get it”, not because they’re happy I’m “joining the club” or some such nonsense, but because as modern adult women they’re more aware of the action of gender as a social system… they are, after all, the living legacy of the feminist revolution.
Too much of this conversation is dominated by absolutes, by imperatives and irreconcilable declarations, in the face of complex realities. No one has the authority to say “it is thus” in any context but their own experience.

I get it, but I don’t agree- on one point. I, or you, or anyone, don’t need nobody to accept us as a woman, and that nobody includes natal women. Exactly because personal experience is personal and because womanhood is not some kind of clique, or caste, or closed club. Actually, replace “womanhood” with “gender”, ’cause the same goes for manhood and at least my knowledge of that last part is not disputed.
Also, as has been pointed out repeatedly in this discussion, by more sober voices than mine I hasten to add, genitals are not that important to the cis people, at least not in their everyday lives, as a gender badge. In fact, srs is a rite of passage for (some) transwomen because they are so atypically hung up on their genitals. That’s a sign of variance if I ever seen any.
I’m also thinking that the HBS position is a much more atypical and non-conforming idea than its inventors want to pass it off as. That gender is defined by your genitals, yeah, OK, that you can pass it as common sense fine. But, that it’s defined by your brain? A small part of it? Right. Try to run that past the cisgendered, see how they’ll look at you. But then the HBSes accuse the tgs as gender non-conformists.
This conversation is not dominated by absolute, vieille branche, it’s just upside down.
Hey. Aren’t you moderating my comments?
What if I slip and call you Clark Kent?
I agree on all points.
No one is under constraint to accept anything – all I really want is to not be actively hindered. Of course, as a social animal, I make my best effort to be accepted, within the context that is important to me. That initial point, however, is one that I know has been made many times to the fundamentalists, who often appear to be more than a little shrill in their demands for unconditional acknowledgment.
And yes, exactly… contrary to the presumptions of many of the fundamentalists – who often trot out a boilerplate challenge along these lines – genitals – *or the perception of them*, since no one I know gropes each other regularly – just aren’t that damned big a deal in the everyday world of normal experience.
I also like your formulation, and think it has merit. Radicals and fundamentalists really are non-conformists. Too much is made of an over-interpreted perception of “gender deconstructionists.” Really, most people I know – which is to say, real transsexuals rather than radical ideologues – just make their way without a lot of fuss.
And no, I do not have you set on continual moderation. I see no need to.
Loose Cannon HEARTs Gorgon Lady
To be honest:
Halfway through this I ran out of breadcrumbs. But I think I get it. I am amazed at how long you have fought this battle. You do make sense here, I’m just not working off a solid foundation to truly appreciate the depth of the conversation. I always appreciate the education. Thanks.
Essentially that’s what started all of this… fundamentalism. Some people (like Cathyrn Platine and Sue Robins) saw my comment on Bilerico as saying that Sue was a man. If you listen to the podcast I put up today, she called in and repeatedly said that. It couldn’t be further from the truth. I was simply pointing out that her argument, Penis=Man, is simply one that if drawn out to it’s logical extreme, would envelope her as well.
I do think it is important, to hammer out the distinctions, so that others that come down the pike don’t fall into this. I see it as a trap of sorts.
I do get your point…as politically, these folks only really bring themselves down. There are no active HBS activists that I know of.
Ya know, in the end the only thing I can claim that I “really am” is Marti. I’ve not had my chromosomes checked, and I don’t care to. I really do subscribe to Rupaul’s quote: “”You’re born naked and everything you put on after that is drag.” This is my gender “performance”. Living the way I do, makes me happy. That’s enough for me to know it’s a good and positive thing, after years of self loathing and self destruction.
What pisses me off more than anything is when someone steps on my identity, to bolster theirs. Especially when they DON’T KNOW ME. “Just Jennifer” on TA had the nads to say that because I wasn’t having SRS, I wasn’t “a woman” or “a transsexual”. That pissed me off, because I normally don’t share my surgical path on the blog. I don’t think that’s something that’s anyones business but mine. What pisses me off even more is the classist (sp?) nature of claiming a biological status via surgery.
I’ve lived through a spectrum of trans identities. I don’t bristle at the “transgender umbrella” because I believe the key to women’s equality is freeing the binary from biology. As the binary loosens up, people will have to grow. Also, anyone who’s gender variant , even the slightest bit… are in the same type of danger. Someone that is aggressively hateful against gender variant people aren’t going to stop and ask me if I have a vagina.
LOL. Sorry, I can’t help but think of Ms. Garrison from South Park when she walks into the bathroom and yells, “HEY GIRLS, I HAVE A VAGINA! ANYONE HAVE A TAMPON!”
I think your point about listening is very spot on. Ed Bradley was once asked what he thought made him such a good interviewer. He said that he basically asked his question, and then got out of the way and just listened. I don’t force my identity on others. I’ve seen other transwomen do that and it’s left me feeling like that’s not how I want to be perceived…. as pushy.
And that is my biggest issue in ALL of this… is that HBS defines itself on saying “I’m not this”. It is, by it’s very nature absolutist.
That’s what she and Sue and Diane do all the bloody time, apparently. Hey, you’re the one who pointed to their usenet history. Didn’t you check? Seems everybody in the alt.support.srs (ass?) list was lobbing “he”s and “you’re a man”s around all the time. That’s their gig. Autumn Sundeen should know, she was there. You should get her to make a piece on them.
And guess what. Those same idiots, had their srs after a long history of identifying as xdressers or autogps. Surprise surprise. Jennifer “Just” Usher actually coined a phrase “more than a transvestite, less than a woman/ transsexual”. Well, she used to write tv porn too…
Oh and Sue is not intersex. At least she was not intersex on usenet, or I couldn’t find any mention of her XXY, anywhere but on Bilerico and your site. She’s just full of shit. Should’ve rang the alarms when she tried to use it as a “womanhood approved” stamp.
Basically, they’re just losers without a life. Jennifer is known for having made 70000 posts on usenet. She has nolife
I think it’s a good thing you’re giving them a voice though, and not banning them from anywhere. Always useful to have a clown around, to show who’s the serious ones here. Malaka.
Hah. Spot on. Mrs Garrison… how’d you come up with that stuff?
I don’t want to think that way, that episode just keeps playing in my head.
> Some people (like Cathyrn Platine and Sue Robins) saw my comment on Bilerico as saying that Sue was a man.
This is why my strategy is different than yours, and why I do not support everything you put out there. You supply a lot of ammo to people dedicated to framing their own contexts. That is not a criticism, simply an observation. You are something of a blunderbuss. I prefer to be a sniper rifle.
> “Just Jennifer” on TA had the nads to say that because I wasn’t having SRS, I wasn’t “a woman” or “a transsexual”.
Jennifer is an ignoramus. I’m working on a post now, on this very topic. But in any case I wouldn’t concern myself with what she says. She’s Borg. She’s been programmed, and writes like a direct-mail brochure.
> There are no active HBS activists that I know of.
This is also my own observation. They make much of pounding their shoe and hollering “we will bury you”, but they really are impotent… and I think that’s what pisses them off most.
> I believe the key to women’s equality is freeing the binary from biology.
I have a complicated internal response to this that it’s going to take a while for me articulate properly. I agree that gender oppression is an objective evil. I don’t think that a militant destruction of gender is the answer. This is why I appreciate Julia Serano.
well, I didn’t say that the binary meeds to be destroyed…it needs to be liberated from biology :p
I love the Nikita Khrushchev visual.
> well, I didn’t say that the binary meeds to be destroyed…
Neither do most so-called “gender deconstructionists.” But you have to bear in mind that we are dealing with profoundly disturbed people who will latch on to any opening to pretend that they’ve gained some kind of upper hand in an argument of their own manufacture.